I'M SAVED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Right now? or in the Future? and what am I Saved from?

[Wondell]

I've noticed that the Messianic community doesn't really focus on the same idea or subject matter as the christian community. One of the subjects I NEVER here the Messianic community speak on is Salvation. Being "Saved" Whats the Messianic/Hebrew community's take on Salvation and being Saved? What are we saved from or are we saved yet? and if we are saved or being saved what are we being saved from? When do we know that we're saved? Are we saved now or in the future?

[Redwood]

In my opinion the reason that the issue isn't addressed is that Messianics tend to adopt the Christian doctrine of salvation by faith. Here's what Isaiah has to say...

Isaiah 56
1: Thus saith YHWH, Keep ye judgment [משפט], and do justice: for my salvation [is] near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.
2: Blessed [is] the man [that] doeth this, and the son of man [that] layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.

In verse one there is a strong association between salvation and justice. משפט can mean law, and righteousness and justice are translations of the same Hebrew word.

[Wondell]

Ok, I can see your point. Let me see if I can throw a monkey wrench in your argument - Thats the scroll of Isaiah. Couldn't be that Messiah was His Salvation near to come and his righteousness revealed? and that being the case we have are living on the other side of salvation, Hithertoforewith (just made that word up) we can consider ourselves saved?

[Redwood]

Yes, the Messiah could have been his salvation. But the idea of living of the other side of salvation seems to imply that salvation is automatic, which would have made the exhortation to keep the law and do justice unnecessary.

[Wondell]

good point. And I think thats precisely what happened with the Xtian church

[Redwood]

Salvation has nothing to do with resurrection.

And Moses said unto the people, Fear ye not, stand still, and see the salvation of YHWH, which he will shew to you to day
Exodus 13:14

[Redwood]

Paul was a lying Pharisee. Hebrews 2:14 is internally contradictory. Psalms 22 refers to a man who had very low self esteen, not Yahshua. Psalms 37 says that the reighteous will escape from the wicked. Hebrews 4:8-10, Matthew 11:28-30, Jer 6:16, and Isaiah 63:14 speak of rest, not resurrection.

You have no truth to support your doctrine.

[Yaacov]

and your ebionite-esque conjecture is supposed to be convincing?

[Redwood]

It upholds the ideals of law, justice, and the bond between father and son, and it agrees with the repudiation of blood sacrifice described by the prophets. It also accounts for the labelling of the men of James as "Judaizers" within the context of the schism between Paul and James.

[Wondell]

There was no schism betwixt James and Paul. Whatever supposed schism was fabricated centuries after their deaths.

I've pretty much left you alone to hate Paul as you wish. Trust me, I've had enough Paul the 13th apostle arguments to last a life time so I'm in no hurry to get into another. But since it's being discussed....

In EVERY single anti-Paul case it's the same thing over and over. People misconstrue Paul's message. Kepa (Peter) Warned against this:

2Pe 3:15 And account [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
2Pe 3:16 As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know [these things] before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

Lets talk about this Judaization

Gal 2:11 ¶ But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
Gal 2:12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
Gal 2:13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
Gal 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before [them] all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

Some translations use the word Judaize there in that last portion.

Firstly this has nothing to do with a rift between james and paul. It has everything to do with Paul's angst for Peter's hypocritical behavior. How Peter would flip flop - one minute he's accepting the gentiles as brethren and eating among then, Then the next when they have company from the High Council of Jerusalem sent from James, he wants to act as if he goyim are detestable and withdraws himself from followshipping with them.

It's about Hypocrisy, Had nothing to do with him not liking those who were of Judaism, Paul himself professed to be a Jew (Jew i.e. Jewdaism) He certainly wasn't talkin race or nationality.

Paul being a former Pharisee had a much more profound education than the rest of the apostles who the scripture called "unlearned and ignorant men". Paul could speak from a depth of knowledge that no other disciple or apostle could. Which is why his writings are so complex. The warning from Peter to believers about Paul that I quoted in the beginning of this reply says it all.

Act 4:13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.

[Redwood]

I agree that Paul's criticism of Peter in Galatians 2 is valid, but disagree regarding the rift, which is evident in Paul's reaction to the finding of the council of Jerusalem, in which James determined that new Gentile converts should observe four points from the Torah (Acts 15:19-21). The works of the law were not part of Paul's doctrine of salvation by faith, so Paul did not tell the Galatians of the finding, but instead misled them by referring to only the remembrance fof the poor (Gal 2:10).

Peter was led by Paul, which could explain his singular defence of Paul and his double mindedness, which was also a characteristic of Paul.

Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry [thee] whither thou wouldest not.
John 21:18

[Wondell]

The truth about Messiah's quotes on the cross and Ps 22. It's not the same. There is an error in the translation. Messiah said "Ali Ali Lama Shabakthani" which SHOULD be translated "My god my god, this is my destiny" or "for this reason I was preserved"

Thats one of those doctrines in xtianity that never made sense. The KJV has it recorded as "Eli Eli Lama Sabachthani" or something like that. This is one of the errors that the Peshitta corrects.

[Redwood]

The meaning of the cry from the cross makes sense within the context of the fulfillment of the prophecy of Psalm 69:21 (John 19:28-31, Matt 27:46-50)

They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.
Psalm 69:21

Psalm 22 and Psalm 69 both describe the events of the crucifixion, and describe a crucified man who knew of his shame, dishonour, and his foolishness. The chapters also refer to the smitten/afflicted one as being someone other than the crucified man.

For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.
Psalm 22:24

For they persecute [him] whom thou hast smitten; and they talk to the grief of those whom thou hast wounded.
Psalm 69:26

The violence of the crucifixion is the consequence of betrayal.

A man shall eat good by the fruit of [his] mouth: but the soul of the transgressors (בגדים) [shall eat] violence.
Proverbs 13:2

Bagad (בגד) means treachery.